Cooling Big Motors Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 09:36:00 Message: 18.104.22.168 writes: Eight or nine months ago, when I first discovered this forum, there was lots of discussion on Stroker motors and how to make them live. It seemed like the mantra was "if you're gonna bore it, then bore it. If you're gonna stroke it, then stroke it." I now have all the parts for a 2276(except the heads, but they're on the way), and lately there's been a lot of discussion about running lower CR's, Porsche fan shrouds, external oil coolers, etc. if I ever plan on driving this thing on the street. I used the information I got from this forum(and elsewhere) to try too put together a package that would run cool and give reasonable life and reliability. For example: VW based heads for cooling, IDA carbs set up and jetted by Art Thraen, an FK-8 cam for its streetability and proper lift , duration, etc. for a "cool" intake charge, Type 4 oil cooler conversion, decklid propped open at the bottom, 3 1/2 qt. sump, all German tin, 8 or 8 1/2:1 CR(to be determined when I get the heads), etc. If I wanna hit the highway with this combo. what could I expect? Do I need an external cooler? Now would be the time for me to get one since I haven't started assembly yet. Will they lower oil pressure? Comments or suggestions anyone? Thanks, Scott S scott s
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External Oilcooling ??? (Dirk) (04-Jul-2000 10:44:12)
Re: Cooling Big Motors (John Plow) (04-Jul-2000 11:08:31)
I have almost that exact combo (Dave Conklin) (04-Jul-2000 11:09:55)
full flow the case for a quality oil filter, (Mike Gagen) (04-Jul-2000 11:47:57)
Re: I have almost that exact combo (Dirk) (04-Jul-2000 11:51:09)
Re: Cooling Big Motors (Craig Merrow) (04-Jul-2000 16:42:18)
Re: Scott, your motor will run fine. If it hot were U are at then do like the others said and install an extra cooler. also... ( Mark H) (04-Jul-2000 21:16:53)
Re: Cooling My Big Motor....a 2276 that can run high 12's (Jim Ratto) (04-Jul-2000 21:34:54)
Jim, Can you give us more details on how you installed the thermostat switch into the case? (n/t) (Steve Arndt) (05-Jul-2000 10:20:02)
Re: Re: CB Performance offers an adapter plate that bolts to Type III filler hole on universal case 1-559-733-8222 is their ph # (n/t) (Jim Ratto) (05-Jul-2000 12:18:53)
Doh! . . . (Steve Arndt) (05-Jul-2000 12:33:28)
Re: WOW!!! I'm sure a location can be found on the case where you can weld up a bung and tap it for the switch (n/t) (Jim Ratto) (05-Jul-2000 13:01:52)
No, no, it's easier to set the temp switch into the line... (Oliver) (05-Jul-2000 16:24:18)
Re: Oliver is THE MAN!! Send us some of your technology, brother....I'm getting bored with all the same old stuff that's been done for 30 years. (Jim Ratto) (05-Jul-2000 22:49:04
Re: Cooling Big Motors
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 11:08:31
Troy Palmer's motor is almost identicle to yours (except he is running 90.5s) and his deck lid is not offset at the bottom.
Type 4 oil cooler only. Three of us and all our gear put a lot of miles on that car around LA, both in town and on the
highway (er, freeway) with a 4.12 r&p and 1.14 4th on a 205/70 rear I think, and it ran pretty cool. That was with temps.
in the high 80's/low 90's and no humidity. Not sure what it's like where you live. Perhaps your offset deck lid will
provide the little extra cooling that those 94s will want?
have almost that exact combo
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 11:09:55
All is the same except for my car has 9.75:1 compression. I dont have an external cooler yet but may put one on this
winter. I am also using a power pully because I am always spinning it up to 7000 RPM with close 3 and 4. (4.12 RP
1.48 third 1.14 fourth) The car is definatly borderline on the temps. It stays pretty cool on the highway because the RPM
is up. When you get off the freeway and start running into traffic lights, the head temps seem to go up pretty rapidly. Just
this week I started blending race gas so that the head temps would stay down.This has seemed to help a lot. If I were
running a full size pully, it would probably be better. Its worth it to me to have the extra grunt and pay a little more for
fuel. Hope this helps
ll flow the case for a quality oil filter,
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 11:47:57
Not sure where you live but if it's hot in the summer it's nice insurance to have a nice Earls 96 plate cooler with an
electric fan (seldom used) mounted above the drivers rear axle.
If your climbing hills on the freeway in the summer you may need it. My engine tends to run hotter on the freeway at
3200rpm then cools down in 1st/2nd gear at low speeds.
Install an oil cooler bypass if your winters are too cool for the spare oil cooler.
Opening the deckid top or bottom can reduce your oil temp by 20 degrees on a hot day too.
Re: I have almost that exact combo
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 11:51:09
Cornpanzer, I agree a external oilcooler is the way to go we usally place it in front of the beam.
I like those AKG oilcooler stuff but I'm not shure if you could buy it in the US.
Oliver Knuf has them in stock.
I like to run a stock size pulley and if I go racing, the fanbelt itself removes or I put it of.
Sorry I don't made it to the classics but I hope we will get in touch next year Classic again.
Re: Cooling Big Motors
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 16:42:18
I'm only running a 1776, but I did opt for the Type 4 oil cooler...also using a '70 engine lid on my car for the extra air
intake. Another neat item is a factory upgrade found on the fuel injection Bug motors; look for a FI shroud that has a
funnel/intake ring for the fan. I found out about this on the CLF a few months back and located one at the junkyard...they
will easily fit earlier factory doghouse shrouds and secure with four pop rivets.
: Scott, your motor will run fine. If it hot were U are at then do like the others said and install an extra cooler.
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 21:16:53
I use a thermostaticly operated fan. I put the whole thing up under the rear package compartment ,to the left of the
transmission. I suspend it from the top and run oil lines from my full flow filter. I make the fittings so they disconnect at
the filter. That way you can just disconnect the lines at the filter and pull your motor with just the two short oil lines
hanging. Its also good to put the cooler in line after the filter. Its easier to filter hot oil. Have fun on the road. :-)
Re: Cooling My Big Motor....a 2276 that can run high 12's
Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 21:34:54
Depending on your climate, I would recommend an external cooler. A byproduct of horsepower is heat. Look at the 911
"S" version from 1969. Porsche supplied the 2000cc flat six with an external cooler at the same time they equipped the
engine with plunger injection (and an increase of horsepower, from 160 to 180). Look at the efficency of the 911 fan and
cooling system, AND the volumetric efficiency of the 911 motor. Much more efficient than the VW.
My point is, the stock doghouse cooler was designed for a stock engine. Yes, it works great, even on mid-sized engines.
But once you seriously increase HP, and include increased RPMs, increased spring pressures, and start running the
engine at an RPM that cavitates the stock fan, the doghouse needs help. In the steppe climate that I live in, an external
cooler is pretty much mandatory on a high HP VW. I was running a pair of Mesa coolers under my car, combined with
the factory shroud/fan/cooler on my est. 185 hp 2276, with a power pulley, propped (2" at bottom) sedan decklid, and
properly jetted (big part of cooling!!!!!) carburetors. I removed the Mesas, and replaced them with a Setrab 720FP
Swedish cooler with twin fans because I like the better quality of the Setrab cooler, and the added cooling of the twin
fans. This cooler works so well, that for the most part, I ran the car minus the stock cooler all together (blocked the inlet
to the doghouse with sheetmetal) with a power pulley, andeven through a warm Indian summer last year, never saw oil
temps over 190F. This year I finally got around to installing a Rabbit thermo-fan switch (321-959-481F) into my case to
control the fans on the cooler, so the engine will warm up.
Am I saying you HAVE to do everything I did? No. Pay attention to the details in sealing your engine compartment, jet
your carbs correctly, and run the car. You can plumb in a cooler if your climate demands it.
For details on my 2276.....check www.cal-look.com.
Hope this answers some of your questions.
Doh! . . .
Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 12:33:28
My Typ Vier case doesn't have a T-III universal plate :) I wonder how I'll work this out. I am going to run a Riechert
thermostat which bolts to the case in place of the stock oil cooler.
On my 96 plate I planned to source a fan and install it. I'll need to figure out a thermo switch though. It is going to go
above and left of the 911 trans.
, no, it's easier to set the temp switch into the line...
Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 16:24:18
...we've got a machined aluminum part, that isn't stopping the oil flow. It will be setted into the pressure line from the
engine, a thermo switch from the rabbit holds the temperature between 90-95°C. Ok? Much easier than all other
versinos, besides not everybody has a universal case.
Jim, you're my friend, you said the right words, the temprature is getting higher with increased power. Who still believes
in what GB says? (a stock cooler for all applications, lol)
Best way tried is the front setup, btw it's expensive and ugly to look on, or you'll mount the cooler in front of the axle
and use a different type of compensator. (we've got something, there... something you never seen)
Remote Oil Cooler Locations?
Saturday, 01-Jul-2000 00:14:27
Well after the Classic weekend I'm can't wait to get my 2110 built! One question I hear most people run remote oil
coolers and I was looking at the one with the built in fan. Where is a good place to mount that puppy? I was also thinking
of using a center mount fan shroud and thoughts on those?
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Re: Remote Oil Cooler Locations? (John Pagnanelli) (01-Jul-2000 00:30:31)
. I mounted my oil cooler and fan right above the tranny. Works great and keeps my engine cool! (n/t) (HotStreetvw) (01-Jul-2000 00:38:08)
Mine is located under my battery where the engine use to be. Great air flow. (n/t) (Brian) (01-Jul-2000 00:52:21)
Brian: Its located where your engine used to be?? Where is your engine now? (n/t) (HotStreetvw) (01-Jul-2000 01:15:52)
Where the rear seat use to be...mid-engine (n/t) (Brian) (01-Jul-2000 01:22:30)
Mine is placed in front of the front axle. Got a nice Mercedes cooler. (n/t) (Alex) (01-Jul-2000 08:15:27)
Do you experience any oil pressure loss by pumping that far? What size lines(i.d.)? What kind of oil pump? (n/t) (Derrick from NC) (01-Jul-2000
I dont have or need one 2165 runs 190 hotest day something must be wrong with youguys setup.. (n/t) (01-Jul-2000 23:17:13)
Re: I wish i lived where it never got above 85 in the summer (n/t) (02-Jul-2000 03:02:20)
e: Remote Oil Cooler Locations?
Saturday, 01-Jul-2000 00:30:31
I would keep the stock doghouse fan setup with the stock doghouse cooler, and then run your auxilary cooler and fan
setup in addition to it through a fullflow system.
Another cool mod is to modify your doghouse fanshroud and run a type 4 oil cooler in it.
You can fabricate the sheetmetal parts to modify the fan housing yourself, or Gene Berg Ent. makes a nice kit.
Re: George I ran my 2332 with.....
Thursday, 27-Jul-2000 00:21:25
Stock and power pullys. In the summer and at low fan speeds(slow speeds in high gear or idel)both setups could push some high temps(220).180 to 200 is best. But this will be after you have used full throttle and all your power. If you keep the fan speed up
It will go back down but the best way I`ve found to stabilize you oil temp is with a thermostaticly controlled fan on a meas cooler hung from the under side on the rear lugage comp. to the left of the trans. When the temp starts to go above say 190 degrees the fan kicks in and does a great job of pulling the heat out of the oil. This in turn has an effect on head temps and keeps them better controlled. I run my cooler lines down the inner fender well to a bumper bracket mounted oil filter and have my engine lines disconnect there for easier motor pulls. You can always run your car 1st to see if it needs a cooler. Then mount the cooler later but its a bit harder to install that way. I drove my motor for years without a cooler in Socal though and I had no probs. But it never got to 100 degrees where I went. The best thing about Power pullys is that you will never throw your belt off. Alot of HIPO VWs rev so quick that trying to excellerate the stock fan to 11,000 rpm instantly causes the belt to fly off. I never had this problem though even with the stock size pully . My motor was an 84x94 with 40x37.5 unwelded professionally ported heads ,a 1 5/8 header 8 to 1 compr, 5.5" rods a 120 engle cam with 1.25 rockers and 48 Dells. This is the most driveable motor I`ve built to date counting stockers too.
You put it in any gear and it will go . It ran high 13s in a 66 Cal Look beetle in 3 gears . I had a 3.88 R&P and stock gears. I drove it hundreds of miles at a time on trips. I seldom looked under the deck lid. Future plans are to put this motor in my 71 Bus. I had it in there before breifly and it was a blast. 160HP bread box!!
Good luck with your car,