Problems with hot oil? Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 17:15:50 Message: 216.190.8.70 writes: Guys, I have been getting a lot of feedback from many of my customers on a new oil that's out, and it looks VERY good. Normally, I cringe at the thought of using Quaker State oil (I use Kendall). However, there is hope! Some of my customers are using Quaker State's new FULL SYNTHETIC 5-50, and the normal result is a 30 DEGREE drop in oil temps, with head temps staying the SAME or dropping. This stuff is not cheap (around $4 a quart), but you may want to give it a shot and report back to us here! John Connolly

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Re: John, Do they advertise better cooling? ( Mark H) (04-Jul-2000 20:23:20)

No they don't Mark. But (you already know this), I don't care what the theory is, my customer feedback is all good, with 20-30 degree drops in oil temps! That is significant.; (n/t) (John Connolly) (05-Jul-2000 11:11:05)

Re: I`ll have to pour some in my bus then. I`ll tell U what happens. (n/t) (Mark H) (05-Jul-2000 11:22:06)

How do you monitor the temps? Keep us posted! (n/t) (John Connolly) (05-Jul-2000 11:44:35)

Re: Problems with hot oil? (04-Jul-2000 20:34:43)

Re: Re: Iv`e used synthetic in my street motor (2332,120cam) with great results, I was driving it 10,000 a year,for a few years. I always looked for 20/50 synth. tho (n/t) ( Mark H) (04-Jul-2000 20:43:27)

5W-50 isn't thin (Bruce Tweddle) (05-Jul-2000 11:03:55)

Re: Re: Problems with hot oil? (Muffler Mike) (05-Jul-2000 12:20:07)

Didn't Porsche use synthetic oil in the later model aircooled engines before they went to H2O cooling?? (n/t) (Derrick from NC) (05-Jul-2000 13:25:00)

Yep, your warranty was void if you didn't use synthetic oil on your 993 (n/t) (Bruce Tweddle) (05-Jul-2000 21:16:43)

A better way to find out... (Don Bulitta) (05-Jul-2000 14:54:39)

I repeat; oil temps are dropping 20-30 degrees, and head temps are staying the same or dropping 10 degrees. (n/t) (John Connolly) (05-Jul-2000 15:31:53)

Re: Synthetics in air cooled engines (george brown) (05-Jul-2000 14:58:22)

Ever heard of the fact, that magnesium is very porous or that a Type 1 engine has only a oil "back-thread" on the pulley? Did you ever tried to run synth oil full seasons under all weather conditions? I've never seen more customers and friends with leaking engines than through that! I stay with high quality mineral oil, sorry. Synth is only something for aircooled race applications or for modern engines. Nothing else to say! (n/t) (Oliver) (05-Jul-2000 16:32:44)

The reason eninges leak oil with synthetic is... (Ed) (05-Jul-2000 17:15:24)

Re: Re: Synthetics in air cooled engines (leewallace) (05-Jul-2000 21:55:50)

It's impossible for a VW engine to have oil pressure higher than 125psi! :-D (n/t) (John Connolly) (06-Jul-2000 00:05:54)

Re: but i saw the gauge reading at 250psi when my friend started the car in the cold morning. i have read in the berg articles stating that some stock pumps give more than 300 psi !! and my friend is using a super big 36mm!!! correct me if i am wrong. thanx (n/t) (leewallace) (06-Jul-2000 12:19:59)

I was kidding Lee! I recently got bashed for my car which has 150-170psi cold, and guys told me it was impossible..... (n/t) (John Connolly) (06-Jul-2000 15:28:39)

Seeing is believing isnt it? (Nick Gomez) (07-Jul-2000 00:41:22)

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Re: Problems with hot oil?

Tuesday, 04-Jul-2000 20:34:43

63.27.97.223 writes:

it's always been my understanding that synthetic oil doesn't work as well on air cooled motors i don't think that it is made to absorb heat much the way that a conventional oil does / and it doesn't protect the cam as well(going flat)on big lift cams / talk to some motor builders that have used it and checked the wear on parts b-4 you jump on the synthetic bandwagon / conventional oil has worked great for years and 5-50 thats awfully thin for an air cooled

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5W-50 isn't thin

Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 11:03:55

207.102.98.188 writes:

The reason your oil pressure is so high when your engine is cold is that the higher viscosity you are used to can't get into the tight clearances. Many people are happy about this problem. They actually brag about their high cold oil pressure. Not me, I'd rather get the oil into where it can do some good.

Oil trivia:

The "5W" is the measure of the oil's viscosity at 32 F.

The "50" is the viscosity at 210 F.

Comparing to 10W-40, the above synthetic oil flows easier at 32, and doesn't thin out at 210 F. In other words, it maintains a more useful viscosity over a wider temperature range.

Bruce Tweddle

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Re: Re: Problems with hot oil? Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 09:20:07 152.163.207.183 writes: The idea of synthetic oils not removing heat has been a long time ago testing. Not saying it isnt still true, but im sure the oil manufacturers have changed things. At least thats what i think. Never know, by know it might work better then a conventional oil for the air cooled. I am using a torco 5w50 synthetic currently to see how it comes out at the end of the year on bearing ware. I have been told superb stories about this stuff. But race only here so i cant give you any real street data. Muffler Mike

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A better way to find out... Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 14:54:39 129.239.209.215 writes: ...would be to measure head temp. Oil temp is meaningless if the oil does not absorb heat. When I first saw tests of sythetic oils back in the 70s the folks selling them used to brag that they rejected heat therefore they were better able to lubricate at higher temperatures. I don't know if this is still true, but until I see measureable results I going to be cautious. Synthetic oil for the most part does lubricate better than petroleum based oil. If it does not absorb heat then you could possibly ruin your engine. I keep track of oil temp on my car, but a better measure would have to be an accurate head temp guage. I would change if it could be proven that the current batch of synthetic oils helps cool the engine. I'm not ready to gamble with my engine at this time. Does anyone have any real proof? DB Don Bulitta

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Re: Synthetics in air cooled engines

Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 14:58:22

198.23.5.7 writes:

In the '70's I owned a couple of motorcycle dalerships in Texas (BMW, Ducati, Laverda, and Moto Guzzi). We acquired one of the Daytona winning R90S BMWs (boxer twin) from our distributor and raced it for a year. The cylinders and rods had been shortened one inch (for better clearance in the corners), ports redone, Carrillo rods, incredible cam (wouldn't RUN below about 2,000 RPM), and titanium lifters; frame had additional bracing, flywheel looked like Swiss cheese, clutch diaphram springs were doubled, gearbox close ratio, etc. This monster had set a 1/4 mile record in its class of 151.?? mph at 12.? (don't remember exact fractions).

Any how, we rear-wheel dyno'd it, then changed to straight 50w synthetic (had to special order it in those days, and it was around $5.50 a quart). Also put B&G extreme pressure concentrate (sold by most Porsche dealers) in the transmission and rear drive. We reran on the dyno and saw a 7% increase at the rear wheel.

The synthetic also protected most of the engine when the block cracked through the front cam bearing journal (it made so much power the block flexed, and finally flexed too much). The 4130 rod that spun a bearing looked like a rainbow - you could almost tell how hot it got from the color gradations, but even with shredded bearing and melting rod side thrust surfaces the synthetic oil managed to keep things together until a rapid shutdown.

Don't know about modern brand name synthetics, but they should have superior film strength, not break down as much or as rapidly due to high temperatures, and don't form acids as readily with blow-by or wator vapor.

george brown

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The reason eninges leak oil with synthetic is... Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 17:15:24 207.16.136.3 writes: After a while, mineral oil leaves deposits on seals. The deposits don't hurt anything, and don't leak any oil. However, when this engine is switched over to synthetic, the synthetic oil washes the deposits off the seals. The seals had comformed to the deposits, and relied on them to help seal. Now that they are gone, the seals are going to leak. The synthetic oil itself does not cause leaks, and if it is used eary on in the lfe of the engine, it will not creat leaks. Only when and older engine is switched over. Ed

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Re: Re: Synthetics in air cooled engines

Wednesday, 05-Jul-2000 21:55:50

202.188.50.117 writes:

i posted a quite similar question sometime back. i agree with Bruce Tweddle in terms of cold oil pressure. one of my friends use sae 50 engine oil WITH THICK TAR LIKE OIL ADDITIVE and he thinks he is smart but i dun think he is. his oil pressure is 250 when cold and almost 30psi at idle. he runs a SUPER big pump and he even claims that his engine has GOOD oil pressure. DUH! .

regarding the questions on synthetics,

i have a friend who is using Chemlube 20-50 synthetic and got good results. lower temperatures and etc. But the problem with him is that he thought those oils could last 10000 miles. and he only changes the oil every 10000 miles!!! this is certainly killing the engine and to make things worse , his engine does not even run a filter.

i am using Castrol multigrade GTX 20-50 with a can of Bardahl 1 additive (THIN TYPE). Before i run a filter i change the oil religiously every 1500 miles. ever since i fitted the Berg Full flow system i change the oil every 3000 miles. i am a firm believer in frequent oil change. Dirt , contaminants and metal particles can damage your engine and there is no way synthetic oil can prevent that ; no matter how good they are.

i can not give any opinions about synthetic engine oil as i have never tried them ( they cost over 7 times more than mineral oil in my place ) but i have tried synthetic gear oil and recommends them highly. Gear changing is much smoother (more sllipery) .

till now i have no problems with my engine but if synthetic oil can really give the benefits that is worth it's price , i might consider it. if in the old days the vw engine can last so long using straight oil , i think my engine should perform and even last longer with the addition of the full flow filter and frequent oil change.

leewallace

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